Some thing I was thinking just now about Christianity (too bad I only remember one out of a hundred thoughts I have when writing..).
1. I personally feel every youth should be indoctrinated with some religious pedagogical dogma (or at least some hard-core humanistic ethics), being that they at least make one think twice about things, and give them a general conscience to be able to differ at least, between 'good' and 'evil'. ..therefore I'm a proponent of the Christian Universities in America... The same thing with Muslim countries, as well as India and Asian countries- all should be taught the pristine philosophies and ethics of their respective religions..
2. In a way I always kind of felt that the whole Catholic-Protestant מחלוקת is in a way very parallel to aspects of what I perceive as the Sefaradi-Ashkenazi מחלוקת (in regards to the whole 'formal mass v.s. Christian rock' debate- that is. ...actually Christian rock is parallel some types of conservative shuls maybe...or actually 'Carlibach shuls'!...). So in that way, they're both sort of legitimate stand-points...
19 comments:
"I personally feel every youth should be indoctrinated with some religious pedagogical dogma."
I've always thought so too!
I'm so glad you feel the same me-luv!
Any elaboration?
Yes, to elaboration:
I would like to go off on a tangent and announce that people who don't respect their religion are wussies (unless they absolutely believe their religion is wrong, and only after having thoroughly studied it). Also, I think it's very respectable when Muslim girls cover their hair... unless their papas are forcing them to do so at the threat of whipping them with a belt. (The only girl who is not cool for covering herself is a girl I often see who insists on covering herself from head to foot (even the face!), with only slits for eye-holes)...that's just sad.
אין שיעור לצניעות: כל המרבה בכיסויי גופה ושערה- הרי זאת משובחת! י
I'll make sure to tell Taliban-indoctrinated girl you said that. :)
How (Traditionalist Eastern European) Ashkenazim keep Judaism is not only unrepresentative of how one ought to keep Judaism, it's not representative of any ethical or religious teaching, and usually makes devil worship look quite wholesome!
(Hey- this is my blog, so it's ok!)
??...I don't see the connection to Ms. Hijab. "Any elaboration?" ;)
Oh, well; as if to say that I understood your calling this idealistic girl 'Taliban-indoctrinated' as sort of mocking, and coming from an orthodox Jew's perspective of what IS and what ISN'T normal to wear in regards to צניעות. And more specifically as showing some level of affirmation that the 'Traditionalist Eastern European' standards of tzniu't and all those who are even somewhat influenced by them are totally sanctioned (from a sort of social norm perspective). Which would also suggest that the idea of covering the face and wearing lose black clothing as a form of 'hijab' [no Arabic letters on my computer yet!](which so many 'imams and spiritual leaders in all parts of 'dar-al'Islam' promoted in the past) is not 'socially acceptable'. To that I said that what the Jews accept as 'tzanua' is not necessarily 'objective modesty' anyway...
....and modesty according to many opinions is an aspect of Judaism. So if how the Jews keep modesty IS Judaism, than other 'worse' forms of religion start looking a lot better!(...now I think I basically covered it..)
(Still not 100% understanding it, or maybe I just haven't been getting enough sleep. In any case, if what I understood is precisely what you meant to say....)
::Jaw drop:: You mean to say you think women should wear hijabs? Then I can't see what your problem is with charedi people who wear thick tights, tight collars, etc. etc. if they're dressed equally as covered only in a more dignified manner than forcing a woman to wear a tent.
Again: you, my dear, were mocking a Muslim girl for refusing to show her body (and face) to men. That is coming from a biast standpoint. A Jewish standpoint. If then you agree modesty is a good thing objectively, who's to say the (lacking) way you keep it is better than the 'all-encompassing' way the Muslim girl does? (Just because you're used to 'showing off' more makes it the only socially acceptable way to be modest?)
In regards to charedi people, the way they dress has little basis in textual Judaism (which is the only Judaism the way I see it). ...it's not a matter of objective modesty like your observations of Muslims...
Its not a matter of her covering her face, etc. What I'm opposed to is the thought that someone behind the scenes most likely pushes her to do so. Because, if in fact she were modest, then when she would walk into class late (as she always did) she wouldn't make a scene by passing through the front of the room (where the teacher was lecturing) and then be picky about which seat she wants.... I would say that, regardless of the fact how rude (and annoying) it is, that that act is not even modest; it attracts a ton of attention (a whole classroom full of staring eyes) at herself.
"In regards to charedi people, the way they dress has little basis in textual Judaism" How would you suggest they dress then in order to also be modest?
"..she wouldn't make a scene by passing through the front of the room"- OK, that's already something else, I see you've got a lot of issues with this girl...
"How would you suggest they dress then in order to also be modest?"- OK, again, just reiterating I said that in regards to 'charedim'. The covering of the arms and cleavage, as well as not having one's legs being viewable as separated may very well have halakhic basis that could be understood to pertain to our times as well. But 'chaerdi' dress has no basis (skirts up to the knees (as opposed to the ankles), fake (or real) attractive looking hair and sexy stockings and jewelry for example, are not overly modest, especially in contrast with the more modest Muslim dress).
I don' have "issues" with her. We never even spoke, and I'm not sure she even knows of my existance. I simply think she's a bit of a "tard" merely by observance.
You like frumpy women, don't you? :P I just can't possibly see much of an alternative to your criticism of charedi dress, unless they do resort to something resembling a hijab (which, I have recently heard some Jewish women have resorted to). And their jewlery!? Come on, how is that possibly immodest? If you're simply going to pick on the knee-length skirt issues, that can be a reasonable argument....
Jewelry is f--kin' sexy, and it's not 'hijab' to wear it amongst 'other men'. Jewish women only wear it because they want 'side shots' (is that the right term?).
Jewlery is "sexy"? What kind...huge plastic bangles, small diamonds, ghetto bling? I never realized my small diamond-studded earings had such an effect....
Okay, I'm done mocking. I suppose you're right, afterall you are a boy, so that makes you a better judge of what makes a girl "sexy" or not. But I'm still not in on this wearing a tent idea... and I think you're wrong if your hinting that that is what the Torah would prefer. (Ooh, and back on the jewlery topic- have you ever heard that idea that Rachel Imeinu wore a nose ring??)
I always thought my father was the toughest tznua-police (don't get me wrong, I absolutely LOVE and RESPECT him and I adore him more than anything in the world), but I think I have found his competitor. :)
Oh, by the way, 'Lomo, this goes to show you're not modern. You're ultra orthodox living in a modern world. Which is okay.
"Jewlery is "sexy"? What kind...huge plastic bangles, small diamonds, ghetto bling?"- Depends if you're black or white...
"Jewlery is "sexy"?'- I think it's pretty obvious..
"But I'm still not in on this wearing a tent idea... and I think you're wrong if your hinting that that is what the Torah would prefer."- It's unclear what the 'Torah' would prefer, and it seems to be open to much interpretation. But again, if you're talking about tzniu't- h'ijab is more tzanua'..
"..have you ever heard that idea that Rachel Imeinu wore a nose ring??"- That too seems to be pretty clear. What would be unusual about that?
"..but I think I have found his competitor. :)"- If my daughter would show an inch of skin befor going out, I would seriously toss her down the stairs, and then we'll see how much skin she shows! ...I'm joking!..gosh!..
"Oh, by the way, 'Lomo, this goes to show you're not modern. You're ultra orthodox living in a modern world."- ?? Many Modern Orthodox follow tzniu't guidelines that I approve of...in FACT(!), it's the (right wing) modern orthodox (or דתיים לאומיים)who are more machmir- their women cover their hair (with cloth) and wear skirts to their ankles, and the 'haredi' women have other peoples' hair on, and skirts until the knees! So they are the lenient ones. (Also more 'dati leumi' men have beards than 'litvish' 'haredi' men, so...).
Either way though, 'modern orthodox' is a mindset, not a dress code..
Interesting. :)
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