my life, as seen through the eyes of Philosophical Judaism
where are you quoting this from?
My f--king self. Thanks for asking ; ) ! I'm actually adding some more (self quotations) now.
lolIn any case, I suppose it holds true...though, with all due respect, I'd say the second part is a bit twisted.
You think it's "twisted" to pray three times a day that G-d should gather together the exiled Jews (very much including yourself) together into Israel, while you (the one praying) make absolutely no effort to actually go to Israel?!
I don't think praying for kibutz galuyot is referring to just a general trend of many Jews going to Israel. Me, you, and everybody going to Israel wouldn't be the equivalent of mashiach coming.Yeah, we do pray for all of us to return...but in essence it's not just a physical return. Would you say that going to Israel and following what Olmert says is any better than following Bush? ...Don't get me wrong, I would still LOVE to be in Israel right now, but even in Israel I would still be saying the same tefillot I'm saying now, no?
Geulah comes to pass in physical world, in a physical context. Everything does. No one is 'whirlwinded' to Israel by mashiach even according to the most supernatural views. The political arena prevalent in Israel today is- in a way- as good as it can get. We vote for our leaders and appoint the one chosen by the people.To put things in perspective, G-d says in the bible (Exodus) "ואשא אתכם על כנפי נשרים" in regards to their 'being taken' out of Egypt. ..there were no eagles. They walked. When mashiach comes we too will walk- to the airport. But hopefully we'll have been in Israel by then."Yeah, we do pray for all of us to return...but in essence it's not just a physical return."- The physical geulah and the spiritual geulah are not the same. The people of Israel being in their anscestral homeland is part of the greater spiritual world-redemption though."...but even in Israel I would still be saying the same tefillot I'm saying now, no?"- You would be praying for those who haven't come yet. Those tefillot were said during 'bait sheni' times too, when the majority of Jews were in Israel anyway...Actually I seem to have had a discussion about all this with a guy called nemo at "spoonicus19.blogspot.com" (listed in my links as "מירי ברמת גן"), in the post second from most recent (entitled 'prayer for the holy land", you should check it out- 'n try to trudge through it). In fact, most of what I just mentioned I first mentioned to him. In fact, that very discussion inspired this small post!"Me, you, and everybody going to Israel IS the equivalent of mashiach coming! See you there!
"When mashiach comes we too will walk- to the airport. But hopefully we'll have been in Israel by then." -I'm not exactly clear on what your argument is, but from this quote it seems clear you do believe that mashiach has not come yet (though the post you directed me to seemed to be arguing otherwise). Or, are you taking the hardcore Zionist stance that we will help bring mashiach by going to Israel sooner?I don't agree with the latter idea, and, frankly, I don't see how it will help if we all go to Israel before mashiach comes. In fact, when I was in Israel I felt I had such a greater appreciation for every moment I was there than many of kids who had grown up there. Out here, you're in contact with "the nations"...you know what its like not to always be with family. Just that gives us such a greater yearning and Zionist (far far from the modern sense of the word) desire to be in Israel...that is, Eretz Yisrael- not Medinat Yisrael. I'm not saying Jews shouldn't be in Israel- may they thrive there. But even in Israel today there is Galut. Go to Har Herzl and you'll see it yourself. ...I think going to Israel is one thing. As wonderful as it may be, however, I'd say it's incomparable to Mashiach.By the way, "The political arena prevalent in Israel today is- in a way- as good as it can get. We vote for our leaders and appoint the one chosen by the people." Ha! It's quite a pity if that really is as good as it gets. :P
Now listen here madam: The argument I'm making is not clear because it's an entire ideology, and something that can (and does) take up whole books. I'm just saying what comes to my mind. You too are basing yourself on a firmly established opinion; the opinion of Jewish American college girls from LA, who are somewhat influenced by Chabad, and somewhat by Zionism (I don't really mean that,..though it was fun to say!). You really have to read through Rav Kook books (no pun intended!) and books by Shlomo Aviner to understand the opinion fully.What comes to my mind now is that; yes. We (religious Zionists) believe (based on scripture of course) that there is certainly a connection between the people of Israel returning to their home land, and the general forthcoming geulah (while writing this I can't help but think how crazy it is to base your view of what is happening in the world on some ancient far away scriptures...but it is at least somewhat logical!). Anybody who believes in the bible cannot deny the intimate relationship between the geographical relocation of the Jews, and the Messianic times and fulfillment of prophesies."In fact, when I was in Israel I felt I had such a greater appreciation for every moment I was there than many of kids who had grown up there."- True- we are (or at least should be!) more of a 'light to the nations' while we are among them, but ultimately that is not what G-d has planned for his chosen people. He wants them to be in a ghetto. A Jewish country. You can't sense G-d's presence on 'Har Hertzel'? Then go to Bait Vegan and be a beacon of light to Jews themselves."...you know what its like not to always be with family. Just that gives us such a greater yearning and Zionist (far far from the modern sense of the word) desire to be in Israel"- What about o'lam haba? What will you yearn for then? Yearning for something distant is fun, but it's more important to (be to Israel) and attempt to make things better around you.[As an aside, I consider this whole thought pattern you're quoting as being heavily based on fundamental eastern European Judaism (which became, because of their many sufferings) overly supernatural. Much more supernatural than was ever intended by the holy writ.]"Ha! It's quite a pity if that really is as good as it gets."- Perhaps if you voted for Feiglin or Marzel or Ichud Leumi (or Shas or Gimmel...or Mafdal) things would be better now. Perhaps if there were more like you and I who came (and more Russian/Communist/Atheist oriented Jews left) we would reshape the political landscape a bit. Know what I'm saying?(American Jews shaping Americas and the worlds opinions about Israel is also a big factor to be addressed...though not now).(I have finals a bit late in the season, but perhaps afterwards I'll post more about that...)
See "Awake my Glory" (A. Miller) on the idea that all Jews being in one place is a good thing...
"Now listen here madam"...That had me laughing out loud. Thanks.You made too many assumptions when you read what I wrote:"Jewish American college girls from LA, who are somewhat influenced by Chabad, and somewhat by Zionism"...Wrong, wrong, and wrong. Nowhere near Lubavitch, and don't be forming images of a Stern or Touro girl in your head either. "...eastern european Judaism"...Again, assuming. My origins are far from Eastern Europe. But even so, I don't think its fair for you to call their views "overly supernatural." To me, your sense of the concept of mashiach seems...bland. (Don't hit me!) "Yearning for something distant is fun, but it's more important to (be to Israel) and attempt to make things better around you." I didn't mean to make yearning sound "fun" or "appropriate," I just meant to make a point that while Israel is near-and-dear to all of us, I don't think it's a "must" for all of us to go there now, pre-Mashiach.As to your future post on American Jewish opinion, I'll have a ton to comment on that.
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