Tuesday, June 16, 2009

Tzniut: Revisited for the Eight Billionth Time

You know, friends, I feel there was something I would have liked to have spoke about last week, but totally forgot about: tzniut. I know I've spoken about this topic over here until the point that "my tongue cleaves to the roof of my mouth" but, as with most matters in life, new events call for new perspectives.

There has recently been some talk about a new book on tzniut that has appeared on the book shelves. I browsed through the book I thought was the one spoken about (although it happened to have been a different book they were discussing) to get an idea about what had caused the hubbub. I didn't see anything particularly objectionable about the book, but it did seem to reinforce an opinion that I had heard about not long before, regarding how much of the area below the neck it is proper for a girl to have revealed. The opinion I had recently heard was that if a girl is wearing a button-down shirt/blouse, it is better to have the top button closed. My opinion on the matter before this had simply been that it is a queer way to carry oneself about, and that the matter had been sufficiently discussed on Seinfeld. The book contended though, that since, unlike the limbs of a woman, a higher level of stringency is placed on the torso (and directly under the neck is part of the torso) it must be covered.

I had once seen in a similar book an opinion that said that since "The Song of Solomon" considers the neck of a woman a beautiful thing, it can be inferred that it should be covered. It therefore suggested girls wear high collars to cover their necks. What I have always found disturbing about this area of "Ashkenazi halacha" is that it's entirely hypocritical. For example if they were so very concerned about the covering of the neck, what more thorough way to accomplish that than a neck-covering H'ijab? And as I've stated numerous times here, their whole approach to the subject is antithetical: According to their rulings it is permitted for a woman to to don a skirt that covers only the top part of her legs (and knees) as long as the lower half is covered by stockings. Yet it's well known that stockings themselves on a woman are considered a thing of attraction, and even getting a glimpse of the stockings on the lower leg of a woman was considered semi-erotic in the past. According to those standards, women such as the wife of the last "Rebbe" of Lubavitch was very sorely lacking in her fulfilment of Jewish laws of modesty. I mean, who said I want to see an old woman's lower legs?

I know this too is something I've ranted on in the past, but there is a well known custom among the Hasidic Jews of south-eastern Europe to not only cover their hair with a wig, but to have a kerchief at least partly covering the hair. Many women who follow that custom today seem as if all they have covering their hair is a kerchief that seems to be covering only a small portion of the hair. How does it help to have Jewish women look like Gypsies? I don't see the touch of modesty in such an outlandish fashion.

But it is well known that this is but the smallest example of the confusion prevalent among the Jews of Eastern Europe. It has always been clear to me that those on the other side of their religious spectrum were more correct, such as the Settler-girls (in Judea and Samaria) who wear pants beneath their skirts. Surely that is the most modest way of going about things.

But what of those on the extreme left? It is their argument that what is considered "modest" changes tremendously with the prevailing fashions. While I do agree wholeheartedly with that opinion, can it be said that if the people of the world all become nudist it would be correct for us to follow suit, since now those parts of the body do not inspire erotic thought? I do not feel so. There must be a middle ground. As far as the current situation of Western dress, I have always felt that it is perfectly possible to be modest while wearing jeans and a tee shirt. While perhaps not entirely ideal, as long as the important parts of the upper arms and legs are not visible, there wouldn't be much of a problem aside for the fact that the shape of the legs is evident. But then again, that is just another example of the hypocrisy of the Ashkenazi tzniut idea. They bring for an example the fact that the 'hip area' (no, not Tribeca!) should not give off it's shape through the clothing, which is one of the reasons they strongly encourage wearing skirts. Yet that logic would necessitate women to wear free-flowing tops cover the lower-back. Instead they wear skirts in which the shape of the hip area is evident, and have no free-flowing torso-garment covering it. I feel that that is perhaps one of the greatest breaches of the concept of modesty in dress. I mean, here are women criticizing the Muslim girls for wearing pants, when they themselves have the shape of their hip area evident. At least the Muslim girls generally have a 'top' that camouflages the shape of that area.

I know this sounds petty, and is a bit representative of the fact that I'm looking at girls to much, but I do still feel it's important to bring up, and that it's clear that the current Ultra-Orthodox understanding of tzniut is just silly.
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[This post, by the way, is merely recording a few minutes of thought I had last week, while standing in the vicinity of religious Jews.]

45 comments:

Altie said...

lol my thoughts on this- 1) u definitly look at girls too much and spent too much thought on them.

i respect you for caring abt tznius as opposed to thinking in typical guy fashion (ooo i wonder wut she looks like with all her clothes off.)

as much as u preach, theres nothing anyone can do abt it unless the girls themselves want to change

yes ppl are extreme, but sometimes extremes are the only thing that works

i hate this topic, so enough said

inkstainedhands said...

For what you were saying about the neck and collar... We were told by one teacher that you see what you have to cover when you wear a necklace. For example, in the back, you have to cover whatever is below the necklace. Same goes for the sides of the neck. A woman is allowed to have her neck uncovered, but not her torso, and by wearing a necklace you can determine the boundaries of the neck.

הצעיר שלמה בן רפאל לבית שריקי ס"ט said...

Altie: Yeah, I guess I am checking them out too much...but there're some really hot girls around here!

"typical guy fashion (ooo i wonder wut she looks like with all her clothes off.)"- I'm not sure that's how Chareidi guys think.

"as much as u preach, theres nothing anyone can do abt it unless the girls themselves want to change"- I wasn't "preaching", I was just saying that jeans and a tee-shirt for a girl is just as 'tzanua' as a skirt/stockings and blouse, so there's less reason to look askance and girls who dress like that..

"i hate this topic"- You've still gotta' decide what to wear every day.

הצעיר שלמה בן רפאל לבית שריקי ס"ט said...

Hanna: So you admit that you've gotta' button the top button?

C said...

Whatever.

Altie said...

shriki- ud be surprised wut goes on in their minds.

yes but i dont care wut others thing so i wear wtvr i want. ish

הצעיר שלמה בן רפאל לבית שריקי ס"ט said...

"i dont care wut others thing so i wear wtvr i want. ish"- Well you should care what G-d thinks. He's important (*sigh*, teenagers!), and you should care about what looks normal in the country you live in (which you obviously do. ..I was just mentioning the only other important thing).

inkstainedhands said...

"Hanna: So you admit that you've gotta' button the top button?" -- Did you HAVE to ask that question?

First of all, I do not normally wear shirts with buttons, except the school uniform.

But all right, fine, yes. You have to button the top button.

Do I button the one on my school uniform shirt? Not usually.

הצעיר שלמה בן רפאל לבית שריקי ס"ט said...

"ud be surprised wut goes on in their minds."- Ha. i can imagine a Chareidi guy peering studiously onto the street, seeimg as if his mind is thouroghly wrapped around a Talmudic 'sugya', when in fact he's really thinking "man, I wonder how that chick would look if she was naked"!

Altie said...

shriki- i do care wut g-d thinks. and how old are u to be calling me a teen?
by saying i dont care its a defence mechanism.

הצעיר שלמה בן רפאל לבית שריקי ס"ט said...

Hanna: "You have to button the top button. Do I button the one on my school uniform shirt? Not usually."- So you don't follow you own rules, eh? I actually tip-toed away from that topic in the post without mentioning it further, because I didn't come to any clear-cut conclusion about it, so..

Though like I said, I guess my conclusion is: It does kind of depend on what's considered uncouth in the society in which you live..

הצעיר שלמה בן רפאל לבית שריקי ס"ט said...

Altie:..I guess I'm six years older than you. I'm old enough to be your father! : P

..though I do feel pretty old..

inkstainedhands said...

"(*sigh*, teenagers!)" -- Excuse me?

"So you don't follow you own rules, eh?" -- What is that supposed to mean? This is what I was told in class, not something I came up with on my own.

Altie said...

shriki- ya that scenerio seems abt right.

Altie said...

25 is not old. i do hope u couldnt be my father, the conclusion which i wont write here is too creepy to think abt.

הצעיר שלמה בן רפאל לבית שריקי ס"ט said...

Hanna: "*sigh*, teenagers!-Excuse me?"- Well that wasn't directed towards you. ..you're no average teenager..

"So you don't follow you own rules, eh?- What is that supposed to mean?"- You said you "have to" button the top button, and then said you don't. I just sounded a little funny to me. (You could have said "the opinion of my teachers is". You said "have to").

הצעיר שלמה בן רפאל לבית שריקי ס"ט said...

Altie: Oh, I get it, I would have had to be six. ..yeah, but the mother could've been much older. ..I see why you didn't want to talk about it..

Altie said...

shriki, if the mother was older that would have been all the more disturbing. and i have no problem talking abt it but i feel that im being too open on blogs and i dont want ppl to think badly of me.

הצעיר שלמה בן רפאל לבית שריקי ס"ט said...

Haha, that's hilarious. (..the fact that you don't want people to think badly of you because of saying something like that, not the six year old and the lady..that's not hilarious...it actually is pretty disturbing). (!)

inkstainedhands said...

If you're going to use my real name instead of my username, please spell it right: Hannah.

"You said you "have to" button the top button, and then said you don't." -- I meant that the general rule is that you have to button it. It's not just the opinion of my teachers -- we were given a sheet on it.

הצעיר שלמה בן רפאל לבית שריקי ס"ט said...

Hannah: Sorry, I always get confused with that last 'h'. Like "Sara", some write it without a final 'h'. I mean, your username is to long to write, like mine..

"we were given a sheet on it."- Like the sheet of which hashgachas to use in Israel...but I suppose you're not holding by that yet..

Altie said...

why is that funny? despite my macho exterier, i do care what ppl think. and especially online where u cant take back wut u say, ppl jump on u for the littles things. i'll mention something abt a guy and theyre all like, ooo shes a bad girl. it bothers me, cuz these ppl dont even know me.

ya it is disturbing.

abt rules- u can begiven them and not follow them
according to the laws of tznius, my skirt is supposed to cover my knees.
(note how i say 'supposed to'. reach a conclusion by yourself.)

rules are meant to be broken.

and u are SO OLD.

הצעיר שלמה בן רפאל לבית שריקי ס"ט said...

"i'll mention something abt a guy and theyre all like, ooo shes a bad girl."- Oh, come now, being worried about being a "bad girls" to blogger people?

"my skirt is supposed to cover my knees. (note how i say 'supposed to'. reach a conclusion by yourself"- And you say you're not a bad girl! (rolling my eyes)

"and u are SO OLD"- Age is relative my dear! : P ..is this meant as a response to something?

הצעיר שלמה בן רפאל לבית שריקי ס"ט said...

I accidentally wrote "girls" as opposed to "girl" in the first paragraph..

Altie said...

I am not a bad girl! my tznius is my own concern. ya i do kind of worry, i dont need ppl judging me.

it was a response to u saying u are old. 25 is not old.

Altie said...

wtvr. yes i know it doesnt matter what ppl in cyberspace, whom ive never met and probably never will, think of me. but thats how i am

הצעיר שלמה בן רפאל לבית שריקי ס"ט said...

Thanks again for your consolation in regards to my age! And don't worry about people judging you, that is...if you want to be a recluse like me!

Altie said...

oh you are a recluse? thanks for putting a name to it, i was trying hard to figure out what your poblem is.

are u israeli?

inkstainedhands said...

"I mean, your username is to long to write, like mine.." -- Most people have gotten around that little issue by calling me ISH.

"rules are meant to be broken." -- What a shocking thing to say, Altie! They're only meant to be bent. ;]

I have my name on my blog, so whatever I write is going to be connected to my name. That's good though, because when I know that I am responsible for what I say, I am more careful with what I post.

Altie said...

ish- i like it.
i didnt realize you are so young (sorry, i hate when ppl tell me that but 17 sounds young compared to 19. i hope u dont think i sound old.)

rules are meant to be slightly pushed out of the way, misinterpreted, rewritten, etc. pushed to the limiits.

inkstainedhands said...

Altie -- Yes, I am 17. The strange thing is that even though I know you were just in seminary, I for some reason felt as if you were my age. So no, I do not think you sound old.

Somebody else on the other hand... who talks about teenagers as if they are another species....

Altie said...

yay! well im happy you can relate to me. i always used to look ar sem girls as being old, mature, scary etc. and i never wanted to be one. i wanna stay a teen forever!! no not really, just saying.

did u read the post on my blog life as a teenage robot? its cool.

no u dont seem 17, u are mature for ur age. and u dont seem fake and petty like a lot of teens today. good 4 u.

i wish i started blogging when i was younger, as opposed to this year. it may have saved me a lot of heartache. probably not though.

הצעיר שלמה בן רפאל לבית שריקי ס"ט said...

Altie: Why, are all Israelis recluses? : P. I was born in Israel, but taken to America before I reached the age of 1. Growing up I only spoke English..

הצעיר שלמה בן רפאל לבית שריקי ס"ט said...

Hannah: "Ish" means a man. I don't think that's very appropriate. Worst comes to worse they can add an 'a' in the end, as a continuation of "Hands" (which would make "ISHA").

Altie said...

israelis are..... wow so many things i cant put it into just one short comment.

for some reason u seem israeli, your personality, though maybe its just the fact that your blog name is in hebrew letters, it could be just a trick of the mind.

so u don't speak hebrew at all, or just not as a first language?

i have to say, if u asked me a while ago i would have straight out said i hate israelis, but that has slowly changed over the year. now i can say, i respect them a lot, admire them, and even like them a little bit.

and btw, ish is a word used to say so so. like how well do i know u? ish, sort of. it only means guy in hebrew, and we are not talking hebrew here. but i like your idea for isha. cute.

הצעיר שלמה בן רפאל לבית שריקי ס"ט said...

"Somebody else on the other hand... who talks about teenagers as if they are another species...."- Haha. It's just like she said, teenage girls can be "fake and petty". I probably wouldn't have had common ground with them as a teen either (I was also a 'mature' type of teen, even most of the kids in my class seemed a bit babyish).

inkstainedhands said...

Seminary girls, old? In what universe? Haha.

And I definitely do not want to stay a teenager forever. It is a very scary thought.

"no u dont seem 17, u are mature for ur age. and u dont seem fake and petty like a lot of teens today. good 4 u." -- I am who I am. :]

""Ish" means a man. I don't think that's very appropriate." -- Don't over-analyze it. It stands for inkstainedhands, and that should be good enough.

Altie said...

dude 'she' has a name.

so u were a mature teen. funny, i usually say that guys dont mature until they are at least 30, so in my opinion, for all your 25 years you should still be immature. but i dont know u enough to make that assumption, so ill give u the benifit of the doubt.

and i know how it is with being the odd one out, and feeling like everyone around u needs to grow up a lot, and why do u have to be stuck with them.


ish- hey, sem girls are not old old, but i think im a bit old and mature.

הצעיר שלמה בן רפאל לבית שריקי ס"ט said...

"for some reason u seem israeli, your personality"- Being someone who hangs out with Israelis a lot, I can say that in real life I'm not very similar to most Israelis (though I hope for my kids to be fully integrated into the Israeli culture).

"so u don't speak hebrew at all, or just not as a first language?"- I learned Hebrew my first year in high school, and since then I've had years that I spend most of my time learning Gemara, sometimes in Israeli yeshivas. I guess it has affected my accent because some people say I have an Israeli accent in English, and most Israelis don't feel I have an american accent.

"and btw, ish is a word used to say so so"- I guess it goes to show I'm thinking in Hebrew..

"..thanks for putting a name to it, i was trying hard to figure out what your poblem is"- You know, I think I just noticed how degoratory that is..

inkstainedhands said...

"You know, I think I just noticed how degoratory that is.." -- That just struck me as being extremely funny.

Altie said...

u seem to have an israeli mentality. are your parents israeli? they never spoke to u in hebrew? are u gonna live in israel when u get married?

is was meant in a sarcastic way, not insulting.

ish- it is pretty funny.

and shriki btw, a piece of your own advice- dont get insulted by what bloggers say.

הצעיר שלמה בן רפאל לבית שריקי ס"ט said...

"are your parents israeli? they never spoke to u in hebrew? are u gonna live in israel when u get married?"- Well, *ahem*, my parents are both olim, my mother from America and my father from Morocco, and they met there (I think I mentioned this in a post). They both spoke English with each other and me when they came to America. And yes, I see it as a betrayal to the Jewish people to raise ones family outside of Israel. My opinion would have been the same a hundred and fifty years ago when there were only Arabs there..

"and shriki btw, a piece of your own advice- dont get insulted by what bloggers say"- *sigh*. ..it was funny though..

Altie said...

i dont agree. i think it is important for a jew to live in israel, but its not an obligation. plus if u think abt it, there are many lost jews out there who need our help, and there are shluchim and mekuravim who are doing a great job. so no, their job is not to live in israel. and i know for myself id never survive therer.

its ok, if u want to be a recluse its fine with me.

הצעיר שלמה בן רפאל לבית שריקי ס"ט said...

Israel: People more intelligent than us have already wrote extensively on the subject. All we can do is put down our novels and patiently sort through the sources to see which opions we agree with more. I'm thinking of the writings of people like Rav Kook, Rav Scheerson (Chabad) and Rav Teitelbaum (Satmar).

"its ok, if u want to be a recluse its fine with me"- I wasn't asking you, but ok.. : P

Altie said...

duh but i like to give my approvel where its not needed ;)

ya im not smart enough thats why i dont discuss it.